CONTENTS
Standing Committee on Crown and Central Agencies
Supplementary Estimates
— No. 1
Parks, Culture and
Sport Vote 27
Public Service
Commission Vote 33
SaskBuilds and
Procurement Vote 13
Justice and Attorney
General Vote 3
Corrections, Policing
and Public Safety Vote 73
THIRTIETH
LEGISLATURE
of
the
Legislative Assembly of Saskatchewan
STANDING
COMMITTEE ON
Hansard Verbatim Report
No.
2 — Monday, December 9, 2024
Chair
Steele: — Okay. Okay, welcome. And we’re going
to introduce everyone here that’s here today. I’m Doug Steele. I’m the Chair of
the committee. Erika Ritchie is my Deputy Chair. Chris Beaudry is here. Terri
Bromm. Lori Carr is here. And Nathaniel Teed is here at the table for Don
McBean, and Mr. Warrington is here for Jordan McPhail. Okay.
Committee, all the estimates.
Notwithstanding rule 148(1), the following 2024‑25 supplementary
estimates no. 2 were commended to the Standing Committee on Crown and
Central Agencies on December 5th, 2024 by order of Assembly: vote 73,
Corrections, Policing and Public Safety; vote 3, Justice and Attorney General;
vote 27, Parks, Culture and Sport; vote 33, Public Service Commission; vote 13,
SaskBuilds and Procurement. We will consider all of these supplementary
estimates today.
General Revenue Fund
Supplementary Estimates — No. 1
Parks, Culture and Sport
Vote 27
Subvotes (PC01), (PC12), and (PC18)
[15:00]
Chair
Steele: — Parks, Culture and sport. We will
start with considerations of supplementary estimates no. 1 for Parks,
Culture and Sport. Minister Ross is here with her officials. I will remind our
officials to identify themselves before they speak, not to touch your mikes.
The Hansard operator will turn your mike on for you.
Minister Ross, please make your opening
remarks and introduce your officials.
Hon. Alana
Ross: —
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’m pleased to be here today to answer your questions
related to the supplementary estimates for the Ministry of Parks, Culture and
Sport. The officials joining me here in person today are behind me: Drew
Lumbard, my chief of staff; Greg Gettle, deputy minister to my right; Paul
Johnson, assistant deputy minister to my left; Pam Herbert, executive director,
strategic and corporate services behind me; and Jessica Jackson, director of
corporate services also behind me. Thank you all for being here today.
The ministry requires supplementary
appropriations for this fiscal year due to the negotiated salary increases with
SGEU [Saskatchewan Government and General Employees’ Union] and the
corresponding increases for out-of-scope employees. As you know, these are not
costs that the ministry can control and will cause us to exceed our current
budget allocation. These increases have resulted in an in-year salary pressure
of $5.212 million. Of that, 3.926 million is required to offset
compensation increases for our Saskatchewan parks employees. The remaining
1.286 million is to fund compensation increases across our ministry’s
other divisions.
Now that the negotiated salary increases
are known, the ministry has been able to calculate the full impact of the
changes. The calculations account for the estimated compensation costs to the
end of the current fiscal year.
With that I will turn it over to the
Chair. My officials and I would be happy to take any questions you may have.
Thank you.
Chair
Steele: — Are there any questions? MLA [Member
of the Legislative Assembly] Warrington.
Darcy
Warrington: —
Thank you, Madam Minister. My first question: how much of an increase will the
SGEU employees represented under this agreement see, and how much over the next
four years cumulatively?
Greg Gettle:
— Hi. I’m Greg Gettle, deputy minister for the Ministry of Parks, Culture and
Sport. So we actually don’t have a four-year projection. What we’re here today
is just to ask for the supplementary amount that we require for this fiscal
year. So for this current fiscal year that we’re in, from an in-scope employee
standpoint, the appropriation we require is 4.211 million.
Darcy
Warrington: —
Okay. Next question?
Chair
Steele: — Yeah, just continue.
Darcy Warrington: — And a second
question to Madam Minister, Mr. Deputy Minister. When does the agreement with
SGEU expire?
Hon. Alana
Ross: —
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The agreement starts October 1st, 2022 and ends September
30th, 2025.
Darcy
Warrington: —
Thank you. And, Madam Minister, how many employees will see an increase in pay
because of this agreement being signed?
Greg Gettle:
— So to answer that question, there are approximately 438.9, or 439, FTEs
[full-time equivalent] that will receive the increase.
Darcy
Warrington: —
Great. Madam Minister, how many full-time, how many part-time, how many casual
staff are represented under this agreement?
Greg Gettle:
— So I apologize. We don’t have a breakdown by full-time, part-time, and
casual, but we do have a breakdown with us on out-of-scope and in-scope and
then students. So for out-of-scope it would be 95, for in-scope it would be
264, and for students it would be 80.
Darcy
Warrington: —
All right. Madam Minister, that takes one of my questions away, which is good.
What type of work do the employees in this ministry do?
Paul Johnson:
— Paul Johnson, assistant deputy minister for parks division. In the ministry
the majority of the employees are in parks division. Of course our labour force
builds up in summertime when the parks are busy. And they do all types of work
that you can imagine in the parks itself. Maintenance, there’s a number of
different types of maintenance staff. Some technical trades people we have on
staff. We have a lot of administrative staff, programming and interpretive
staff in that FTE number. We have park enforcement staff, rangers, seasonal
conservation officers, and we have other staff such as lifeguards, gate
attendants as well.
So that gives a snapshot of the majority
of the staff in the ministry. Of course there’s professional staff as well that
do some work on the policy. We have some staff that do some work on engineering
requirements on our infrastructure pieces as well. So that gives a bit of an
overview of the labour force in parks division.
Darcy
Warrington: —
And, Madam Minister, are staff under this agreement provided annual training as
part of the agreement? If so, what type?
Paul Johnson: — So I’ll stick with
parks division. Again the majority of the employees in the ministry are parks
division. So we provide a significant amount of occupational health and safety
training, specifically safety training for our staff every year. Of course safety
is the biggest concern for our employees out there when they’re working
particularly in natural environments or with machinery or equipment in parks.
So we do provide a significant amount of training when we onboard our staff
every year and when we bring back our labour service recallable staff as well.
Darcy
Warrington: —
And, Madam Minister, earlier it was suggested there’s 95 out-of-scope
employees, so they would be outside of SGEU. Is there any adjustments to the
amount of money being provided for them through these supplemental estimates?
Greg Gettle
— Yes, there is. And there are increases for the out-of-scope employees. Of the
5.212 million that we’re looking for, approximately $1 million is for
increases for out-of-scope employees. Those increases closely mirror the
increases for the in-scope employees.
Darcy
Warrington: —
No further questions, Madam Minister. Thank you.
Chair Steele: — Well do you have
any other questions? No. Okay. Seeing no more questions, we will proceed to
vote. Minister, do you have any comments, closing comments?
[15:15]
Hon. Alana
Ross: —
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for hearing our
presentation today. I would also like to thank my officials for joining me here
today and for the Legislative Assembly staff for their work here today.
Chair
Steele: — Thank you. Any closing comments from
. . .
Darcy
Warrington: —
I just want to thank Madam Minister and her staff for her guidance on all of
this. Thanks for verifying the answers to all of our questions.
Chair
Steele: — Okay. Okay, we’ll proceed to vote
here. Questions are done. Okay, vote 27, Parks, Culture and Sport. Central
management and services, subvote (PC01) in the amount of 302,000, is that
agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. We’re rolling right along
here. Parks, subvote (PC12) in the amount of 4,378,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Okay, resource stewardship,
subvote (PC18) in the amount of 532,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Okay, Parks, Culture and
Sport, vote 27 — 5,212,000.
So I will now ask the member to move the
following resolution:
Resolved that there
be granted to His Majesty for the 12 months ending March 31st, 2025, the
following sum for Parks, Culture and Sport in the amount of 5,212,000.
Hon. Lori Carr: — I so move.
Chair
Steele: — MLA Carr. Is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Okay. We’ll change
officials. We’ll let Parks, Minister Ross . . . Thank you so much for
coming.
General Revenue Fund
Supplementary Estimates — No. 1
Public Service Commission
Vote 33
Subvote (PS01), (PS03), (PS04), and
(PS06)
Chair
Steele: — Okay. We’re going to move into
Public Service Commission. We’ll move on to supplementary estimates no. 1
for Public Service Commission. Minister Harrison, Meadow Lake, is here with his
officials. I will remind our officials to identify themselves before they speak
and not to touch the microphone. That microphone is pretty important; I can see
that. That’s why. The Hansard operator will turn them on for you when it’s
needed. Minister Harrison, please make your opening comments and introduce your
officials.
Hon. Jeremy
Harrison: —
Sure. Thanks very much, Mr. Chair. Thanks to the committee. I’m here to provide
additional information on supplementary estimates for the Public Service
Commission or PSC. Before I start I’d like to take a moment to introduce
officials here with me today. Greg Tuer, Chair of PSC; Pat Bokitch and Claudia
Burke, assistant Chairs; Jarret Boon, executive director of corporate services.
PSC works as a central agency for
government providing human resources services for executive government as well
as some agencies, boards, and commissions. PSC ensures we have the right people
with the right skills at the right time, delivering programs and services to
the people of Saskatchewan. This includes providing services such as payroll
and benefits, labour relations, organizational development, employee
recruitment, retention and development, compensation and classification, as
well as health and safety.
Currently there are more than 11,000
employees who work for the Government of Saskatchewan. These employees work in
various roles all over the province with unique HR [human resources] challenges
and needs, and it is PSC’s role to support these employees and their managers.
On behalf of government, PSC negotiated
a new three-year collective bargaining agreement with the Saskatchewan
Government and General Employees’ Union, SGEU, and Canadian Union of Public
Employees, CUPE. The agreement is retroactive to 2022 and ends in the fall of
2025. Out-of-scope compensation was also adjusted in alignment with in-scope
increases. In accordance with these new agreements, employee salaries have
increased and retroactive pay is being processed this fiscal year.
PSC’s budget is largely comprised of
employee wages with the remainder tied to fixed operating costs. This means PSC
does not have the flexibility to accommodate these unbudgeted increases within
their existing budget, and so we are requesting additional funding for PSC to
address these increased employee wages.
Thank you. And with that, I’d open the
floor to any questions.
Chair
Steele: — Any questions? Mr. Teed.
Nathaniel Teed: — Yes. Thank you so
much. Minister Harrison, how much of an increase will employees represented
under this agreement see, and how much over the next four years cumulatively?
Hon. Jeremy
Harrison: —
Yeah, no, thanks, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the question. So obviously the
increase was three, three, and two over the term of the agreement — ’22 is
three, ’23 is three, and ’24 is 1.67 on the economic adjustment. A pension
adjustment as well was included in there, so in the context of the general wage
increase over three years is estimated at $122.5 million.
Nathaniel Teed: — Thank you so much.
And when does this agreement expire?
Hon. Jeremy
Harrison: —
In September. September 30th, 2025.
Nathaniel Teed: — Thank you so much.
How many employees will see an increase in pay because of this agreement being
signed?
Hon. Jeremy
Harrison: —
Right. With regard to PSC specifically it’s right around 300. I think we are at
304 or . . . but it’s, yeah, around 300.
Nathaniel Teed: — How many
full-time, part-time, and casual staff are represented under this agreement?
Hon. Jeremy
Harrison: —
In total, included in the PSC allocation is the 300 FTE allocation, yeah.
Nathaniel Teed: — What type of work
do the employees in this ministry do? You kind of went off the hop.
Hon. Jeremy
Harrison: —
I did, yeah. No, I appreciate that. But largely I’m working on managing a
number of the payroll and benefits issues, labour relations issues,
organizational development, employee recruitment, retention development, kind
of what generally you would expect of a very large HR organization.
Nathaniel Teed: — Thank you so much.
You mentioned that the negotiations were with SGEU and CUPE. What employees are
negotiating under CUPE and which employees are negotiating under SGEU?
Hon. Jeremy
Harrison: —
So actually I’ll maybe ask Greg to speak to that. The vast majority are SGEU,
but there’s a CUPE element to it as well.
Greg Tuer:
— There’s a small bargaining unit of CUPE employees that are in the Ministry of
Social Services and it’s . . . I’ll look to Pat but roughly 200
employees. The rest of our in-scope employees would be members of the SGEU.
Nathaniel Teed: — Are staff under
this agreement provided any annual training as part of this agreement, and if
so, what type of training is offered?
Pat Bokitch:
— There’s no change to training provisions as a result of the new collective
bargaining agreements.
Nathaniel Teed: — Thank you so much.
I have no further questions.
Chair
Steele: — Seeing no more questions, we will
proceed to a vote. Okay, we will vote 33, Public Service Commission. Okay.
Central management and services, subvote (PS01) in the amount of 212,000, is
that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Human resources
consultation services, subvote (PS03) in the amount of 844,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Employee relations and
strategic human services, subvote (PS04) in the amount of 836,000, is that
agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Agreed. Carried. Human resource
service centre, subvote (PS06) in the amount of 1,314,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Public Service Commission,
vote 33 — 3,206,000.
I will now ask a member to move the
following resolution:
Resolved that there
be granted to His Majesty for the 12 months ending March 31st, 2025, the
following sum for Public Service Commission in the amount of 3,206,000.
Hon. Lori Carr: — I so move.
Chair
Steele: — MLA Carr. Is that agreed?
Some Hon. Members:
— Agreed.
Chair Steele:
— Carried. I guess that concludes the business for . . . No? Oh,
closing remarks. I’m getting ahead of myself. I’m moving around. Any closing
remarks, Minister?
Hon. Jeremy
Harrison: —
None.
Chair
Steele: — Okay, that will conclude our session
for Public Service.
General Revenue Fund
Supplementary Estimates — No. 1
SaskBuilds and Procurement
Vote 13
Subvotes (SP01), (SP02), (SP05), (SP11),
and (SP14)
Chair
Steele: — Okay, next is consideration of
supplementary estimates no. 1 for SaskBuilds and Procurement. Minister
Marit is here with his officials. I will remind officials to identify
themselves before they speak and not to touch the microphones. The Hansard
operator will turn them on when you need them.
Minister Marit, please, your opening
remarks and introduce your officials.
Hon. David
Marit: —
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before I begin I officially want to introduce my
officials. My chief of staff, Sean Wilson, is sitting behind me. To my left is
Rebecca Carter, the deputy minister of SaskBuilds, and to my right is Jill
Zimmer, assistant deputy minister of corporate strategy and services.
The Ministry of SaskBuilds and
Procurement has requested supplementary estimates due to salary pressures
resulting from the collective bargaining agreement settlement and out-of-scope
compensation plan. The salary pressures include retroactive pay for 3 per cent
for ’22 and ’23 and 1.6 per cent for 2024 for in-scope staff and 3 per cent for
2023 and 2024 for out-of-scope staff.
As SaskBuilds and Procurement is a very
large ministry, the cost that is associated with these settlements is
substantial at 9.4 million. This caused the pressure that requires
supplementary funding to manage in the current year. Going forward, these costs
have been incorporated into SaskBuilds and Procurement’s budget. Thank you, Mr.
Chair.
Chair
Steele: — Thank you, Minister. Any questions?
I recognize MLA Ritchie.
Erika Ritchie: — Thank you, Mr.
Chair. I’d like to start by asking the minister, how many employees will be
affected by this new agreement?
Hon. David
Marit: —
All of them.
Erika Ritchie: — And how many would
that be exactly, please?
Jill Zimmer:
— Approximately 995 FTEs.
Erika Ritchie: — And I’m wondering
if you could break that down for me in terms of in-scope and out-of-scope.
Jill Zimmer:
— Yes. About 62 per cent of those are in scope and 37.8 per cent are out of scope.
Sorry, I have to do the math quickly on that, but that’s the breakdown.
[15:30]
Erika Ritchie: — Yes, I notice that
in vote 13 it identifies supplementary amounts for central management and
services, some property management, transportation and other services,
information technology, and infrastructure and procurement. Could you provide
me with a breakdown of how many employees would be receiving an increase in
each of those areas?
Jill Zimmer:
— I could. In (SP01), central management and services, 75 employees; (SP02),
property management, 318; (SP05), transportation and other services, 113;
information and technology, 318; and (SP14), infrastructure and procurement,
171.
Erika Ritchie: — And where would
those employees reside?
Jill Zimmer:
— Well, for the property management and transportation and other services
subvotes, those employees are dispersed all over the province, and the
remainder of them are mainly in Regina.
Erika Ritchie: — And I wonder if
you could tell me what type of work these employees undertake.
Hon. David
Marit: —
Mr. Chair, is that relevant to the estimates?
Chair
Steele: — Okay, what I’m being told is we want
. . . allow a wide latitude, but we try to keep it back into
connected with the relevancy of the question, so if we can connect it that way.
Hon. David
Marit: —
Repeat the question.
Erika Ritchie: — Sure, yeah. Happy
to do that. What type of work do the employees in this ministry do?
Rebecca Carter:
— Hi. Rebecca Carter, deputy minister, SaskBuilds and Procurement. Our
employees are engaged in a variety of different functions. We have an
information technology division which provides a central IT [information
technology] service for government. We also have an infrastructure planning and
priority function which provides advice on a long-term capital plan for
government.
We have the infrastructure design and
delivery arm of our ministry, which provides oversight of major capital
infrastructure projects. We oversee the province’s central vehicle agency,
building management, and government property as well as realty services, mail
telecommunications and records, and the provincial air ambulance.
Chair Steele: — I’d like to, if you could, please keep it
relevant to the connected supplementary estimates.
Erika Ritchie: — And, Mr. Minister, are staff under this
agreement provided with annual training as part of this agreement? And if so,
what type?
Jill Zimmer: — Jill Zimmer again. They’re provided
training not necessarily specifically as part of the agreement, but just as
part . . . We have many professionals that require training to keep
their designations, and that training is provided, of course, by the ministry.
Erika Ritchie: — Thank you. I have no further questions, and
I would just like to take this opportunity to thank the minister and his
officials for being present here today to answer all of our questions. Thank
you.
Chair Steele: — Thank you so much. Any closing comments,
Minister? No comments. Okay, we’ll move into voting.
Okay. Vote 13, SaskBuilds and
Procurement, central management and services, subvote (SP01) in the amount of
752,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Okay. Property management,
subvote (SP02) in the amount of 2.639 million, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Transportation and other
services, subvote (SP05) in the amount of 993,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Information technology, subvote
(SP11) in the amount of 2.967 million, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Okay. Infrastructure and
procurement, subvote (SP14) in the amount of 2.020 million, is that
agreed?
Some Hon. Members:
— Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Okay. SaskBuilds and
Procurement, vote 13 — 9,371,000.
I will now ask a member to vote the
following resolution:
Resolution that
there be granted to His Majesty for the 12 months ending March 31st, 2025, the
following sum for SaskBuilds and Procurement in the amount of 9,371,000.
Chris Beaudry: — I so move.
Chair
Steele: — Is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried.
General Revenue Fund
Supplementary Estimates — No. 1
Justice and Attorney General
Vote 3
Subvotes (JU01), (JU03),
(JU04), and (JU08)
Chair
Steele: — So before we continue, I’d like to
acknowledge MLA Nicole Sarauer sitting in for Don McBean. Thank you.
Okay, we’ll move into consideration of
supplementary estimates no. 1 for Justice and Attorney General. Minister
McLeod is here with his officials. I remind officials to identify themselves
before they speak and not touch the microphones. The Hansard operator will turn
them on when they’re necessary.
Minister McLeod, please make your
opening comments and introduce your officials, please.
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Well thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee members.
I’m pleased this afternoon to attend supplementary estimates to provide
information regarding the additional funding required by the Ministry of
Justice and Attorney General for the 2024‑25 fiscal year.
I’d like to take a moment to introduce
the officials joining me here today. To my right, Kimberly Kratzig, deputy
minister of Justice. To my left, Max Bilson, deputy attorney general. Seated
behind me, Brad Gurash, assistant deputy minister, corporate services division;
Rory Jensen, assistant deputy minister, courts and community justice division;
and Cindy Froehlich, executive director, financial services.
Mr. Chair, the ministry requires
additional funding of $15.757 million in 2024‑2025, primarily for
collective bargaining agreement compensation for staff, and operating pressures
in several programs.
The ministry requires
$10.817 million to centrally manage pressures related to settlement of the
SGEU collective bargaining agreement — I’ll refer to that as the CBA — and
corresponding out-of-scope compensation.
The remaining $4.94 million is for
a variety of key program areas, including Saskatchewan Legal Aid Commission,
Saskatchewan Coroners Service, and the King’s Printer.
I would now be pleased to answer any
questions the committee may have regarding these areas.
Chair
Steele: — Any questions? MLA Sarauer.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you, Mr.
Chair, and thank you, Minister, for your opening comments. I’m going to start
with a few questions around the ratification of the bargaining agreement and
the corresponding increases that have resulted. Could you speak to what the
percentage increase this is for employees within the CBA?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
That was regarding in-scope, did you say?
Nicole Sarauer: — Yes.
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
So the annual wage increases were 3 per cent on October 9th, 2022; 3 per cent
on October 8th, 2023; and 1.67 per cent on October 6th, 2024; plus an increase
of 0.4 per cent to pensions for members who were not already at the 9 per cent.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you. I
understand this includes all of the in-scope employees. How many FTEs does this
represent?
Kimberly
Kratzig: — Good afternoon. I’m Kimberly Kratzig, deputy minister of
Justice. The Ministry of Justice has 1,048 employees — not FTEs, but employees
— who will benefit from the increase. 392 are out of scope and 656 are in
scope. So about 37 per cent of our workforce are out-of-scope employees.
Nicole Sarauer: — Moving on to the
corresponding out-of-scope compensation you spoke about, Minister, could you
provide some more detail as to what that compensation looks like for those
employees?
Kimberly Kratzig:
— Thank you. For the out-of-scope economic adjustments, there’s 3 per cent for
April 1st, 2023; 3 per cent, April 1st, 2024. There’s a 3.41 per cent class
plan renewal adjustment for out-of-scope employees November 1st, 2024 and 1.67
per cent April 1st, 2025.
Nicole Sarauer: — And has both the
in-scope and out-of-scope already seen the implementation of these increases?
Kimberly Kratzig:
— Thank you. The in-scope retro payments were implemented in August of this
year. Out-of-scope, it is expected in January of 2025. As well the in-scope
class plan renewal that we’ve talked about, that has not been fully implemented
but is in the process of being implemented.
Nicole Sarauer: — Do you have a
projected timeline for the implementation of that?
Kimberly Kratzig:
— We don’t have that with us, no.
Nicole Sarauer: — I’m going to move
on to the increases for Legal Aid that has been mentioned, Minister. It’s
stated in the estimates that there has been some increase due to the
ratification of the collective bargaining agreement with CUPE. Could you
provide some detail as to what that looks like?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Thanks for the question. So with regard to the overall ask of
1.548 million, 1.424 million of that is increase in salary and
benefits related to the CUPE signed collective bargaining agreement, including
retroactive pay.
Nicole Sarauer: — What does that
increase look like in terms of percentages for employees?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
With regard to the percentages, effective October 1st, 2022, 3 per cent;
effective October 1st, 2023, 3 per cent; and effective October 1st, 2024, 2 per
cent.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you. And I’m
assuming, based on the timelines, that those employees have already received
the benefit of those increases. That’s already been implemented.
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
That’s correct.
Nicole Sarauer: — Does this budgetary increase
represent the entirety of Legal Aid’s cost for this additional salary?
[15:45]
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Thanks for the question. The answer is yes, the $1.424 million does fully
cost the retroactive salaries.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you. Is
Legal Aid currently operating at a deficit?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Currently the fiscal pressure on Legal Aid has them in a deficit position,
which is why we’re here today asking for supplemental funding. And the
$1.424 million is of course attributed to the salaries and benefits that
were negotiated. But there’s also $124,000 that’s an increase in private bar
costs related to staff vacancies, and so those two numbers combined total the
ask before the committee this afternoon.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you. Just to
clarify so that I’m clear, Minister, once this is approved and this money flows
to Legal Aid, Legal Aid will no longer be operating at a deficit?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Thanks for the question. Yeah, the intent would be to, with these funds, to put
Legal Aid in a position where they’re fully costed for this fiscal year, of
course factoring in that there are some unforeseeables with staffing pressures
and so forth that can’t be known. But this is certainly based on our best
estimate.
Nicole Sarauer: — You had mentioned
that some of this money is to deal with pressures — I’m not putting words into
your mouth — pressures at capacity that are requiring the use of private bar.
Could you speak to those capacity pressures in a little more detail?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
So the use of the private bar is largely due to staff vacancies. However, since
the funding increase, the salary increase, the staff vacancies went from where
they were at . . . Pardon me. I’ll start over.
Staff vacancies went from an all-time
high of 18 per cent down to 3.5 per cent and appear to have stabilized around 6
per cent. The staff lawyer vacancy rate has dropped to 13.4 per cent from 36.5
per cent. Legal Aid services was able to recruit senior lawyers with experience
to offset the retirement of key senior staff, and the average years of
experience of lawyers who have joined since the increase has moved to 6.8 from
4.3 where it was prior to the increase.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you for
that. Since you had mentioned that some of this money will go to address the
need for use of the private bar, could you speak to how much that usage has
been over the past budget cycle?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Just to clarify, you’re asking for private bar usage within Legal Aid?
Nicole Sarauer: — Yes.
Kylie Head: — Hi. Just for the
record, my name is Kylie Head, assistant deputy attorney general with the
Ministry of Justice. So I don’t have an exact dollar amount here for you today,
but what I can say is historically in recent years, 25 per cent of the files
have been handled by private bar lawyers and 75 per cent have been handled by
the staff lawyers. So that’s higher than we traditionally would like to see.
And the number has gone back down again with the good news story with the
salaries increasing and with the positions that were hard to staff being
filled.
Traditionally what the private bar
lawyers are used for is conflict files that need to be farmed out or if we’re
unable to staff a position or if there’s a lawyer who may be on, for example, a
medical leave. And so we need somebody to pick up those files for perhaps a
period of time that you wouldn’t necessarily hire a replacement but they still
need to be handled.
So I don’t know what the current
percentage is but historically it’s been, in the last couple years, that sort
of 75/25. And we’re seeing a real drop according to the statistics that the
minister provided.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you so much.
I appreciate that. Being cognizant of the time, I’m going to move on to the
piece around the coroner’s office. It’s mentioned in supplemental estimates
that there’s been operating pressures resulting from the increases in death
investigations and inquests. Can you please provide some more detail?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Thanks for the question. So I guess the first thing to recognize is that
there’s a backlog of death investigations coming out of COVID still that the
coroner’s office is catching up with. In 2024‑2025 eight inquests have
been held to date. Twelve inquests have been scheduled. That 20 inquests is a
significant increase over the previous two fiscal years, but again largely due
to a backlog that those inquests were restricted through COVID. Additionally 11
inquests are ready to be scheduled for 2025‑26 and a further 23
investigations are still pending.
Nicole Sarauer: — It’s also mentioned
in supplemental estimates that not only was there an increase in inquests, but
there’s also an increase in death investigations. Can you provide some detail
about that as well?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Yeah, I would just say that the number of investigations and inquests is
increasing proportional to the increase in the population of the province of
Saskatchewan. So as the province grows, the number of investigations and
inquests is going to grow, and the data is that by and large that growth is
happening at a proportional rate.
Nicole Sarauer: — It’s not an
increase statistically due to overdose deaths or suicides or anything like
that?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Well the information that I have before me is that it’s proportional. I think
causation may be a different question altogether, but the number of inquests
and investigations is proportional to the growth of the province.
Nicole Sarauer: — Are you able to
provide to the committee some statistics on those deaths at this time?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
We don’t have that data available today, but we can certainly endeavour to get
that to the committee.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you. Could
you provide a timeline as to when you could provide that to the committee?
[16:00]
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
That can be provided prior to the end of the calendar year.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you. I
appreciate that. My next question was going to be how many of those deaths were
children. If you also don’t have that available today, could you also commit to
providing that to the committee in the same timeline?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Yes, we can.
Nicole Sarauer: — In the coroner’s
recommendations a few years back, he had recommended the creation of a child
death review. Is there any plan from the ministry to implement that
recommendation in the near future within this budget?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
I’m not sure that question falls in line with the supplemental estimates that
are before the committee.
Chair
Steele: — Can you tie it back to
. . .
Nicole Sarauer: — Well I would have
if . . . Unfortunately if we knew the statistics in terms of
. . . The frustrating thing for me is, I don’t have the statistics
here at committee on what the increases are for the death investigations, like
who is involved in those death investigations, who has passed away in
Saskatchewan. It’s not available at this time.
So one of my follow-up questions was
about whether or not those . . . how many of those were children, and
then a preventative question. Because of the increases in death, there is a
monetary expenditure. But the question was on prevention, whether or not a
child death review is in the works. I can save it for spring.
A
Member: — Yes.
Nicole Sarauer: — Okay. I think I’m
limited on time here, so I’m going to ask about the King’s Printer, which I see
there was a decreased revenue. The King’s Printer Revolving Fund had a
. . . No, sorry. There was decreased revenue from the Gazette
within the King’s Printer Revolving Fund. Can you provide some more detail on
that?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
I can. Yeah. There’s no longer a requirement for businesses to register in The
Saskatchewan Gazette. That information is available free of charge through
Information Services Corp, so that largely resulted in a decreased revenue for
the Gazette.
Nicole Sarauer: — I suppose I was
surprised that there was any original budgeted estimate for revenue from that.
So could you speak as to what was originally targeted and why there’s a
decrease now.
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
With regard to the Gazette?
Kimberly Kratzig:
— The revenue in ’24‑25 was anticipated. It would have been about
$350,000. So this, the money that we’re asking for in supplementary estimates,
will address that lost revenue. As well as the Publications Centre is
transitioning to a new IT hosting service, so it’s the cost of the IT
transition as well for the Publications Centre.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you. I have
no further questions with respect to this ministry.
Chair
Steele: — Seeing no further questions, we’ll
proceed to a vote. Closing remarks, Minister?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
No, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
Chair
Steele: — Thank you so much. We’ll move to a
vote. Vote 3, Justice and Attorney General. Central management and services,
subvote (JU01) in the amount of 1,611,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Courts and civil justice,
subvote (JU03) in the amount of 3,338,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Legal and policy services,
subvote (JU04) in the amount of 5,909,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Boards, commissions, and
independent offices, subvote (JU08) in the amount of 4,899,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Justice and Attorney
General, vote 3 — 15,757,000.
I will now ask a member to move the
following resolution:
Resolved that there
be granted to His Majesty for the 12 months ending March 31st, 2025, the
following sum for Justice and Attorney General in the amount of 15,757,000.
Terri Bromm: — I so move.
Chair
Steele: — Is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Okay, we’ll move to the
next group. Thank you.
General Revenue Fund
Supplementary Estimates — No. 1
Corrections, Policing and Public Safety
Vote 73
Subvotes
(CP06), (CP12), (CP13), and (CP15)
Chair
Steele: — We’ll get started. Corrections,
Policing and Public Safety. We will start with the consideration of
supplementary estimates no. 1 for the Corrections, Policing and Public
Safety.
Minister McLeod has his officials here.
I will remind all officials to identify themselves before they speak and do not
touch the microphones. The Hansard operator will turn them on when necessary.
Minister McLeod, please make your opening remarks and introduce your officials,
please.
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Thank you and good afternoon again, Mr. Chair and committee. I’m pleased to
attend the committee today to provide information on the additional funding
we’re requesting for the Ministry of Corrections, Policing and Public Safety
for the 2024‑25 fiscal year.
Just take a moment to introduce the
ministry officials joining us today. To my right, Denise Macza, deputy
minister. To my left, Wanda Lamberti, assistant deputy minister of corporate
services. We have seated behind us Nathanial Day, executive advisor to the
deputy minister; Scott Harron, assistant deputy minister, custody; Corey
Zaharuk, assistant deputy minister of policing and community safety; Joshua
Freistadt, assistant deputy minister, supervision and rehabilitation services;
Jill Rowden, executive director of central services; and Ryan Clark, director
of infrastructure and finance.
Mr. Chair, the ministry requires
additional funding of $97.165 million in 2024‑25, of which
45.923 million is to support the operation of the province’s correctional
facilities. Our correctional facilities are facing salary pressures associated
with the negotiated salary settlements as a result of the new collective
bargaining agreement, and overtime requirements, as well as other operational
pressures such as food services and offender provisions. The overexpenditure is
attributed to an increasing offender population.
This supplementary funding request from
the Saskatchewan Public Safety Agency of $35 million includes
1.3 million for the provincial disaster assistance program,
4.3 million for the negotiated salary settlements as a result of the new
collective bargaining agreement, and the remaining portion of 29.4 million
is for emergency and fire response.
The RCMP [Royal Canadian Mounted Police]
requires additional funds of $8.4 million, and this is due to costs
related to the contractual obligations associated with the new RCMP collective
bargaining agreement negotiated between Treasury Board of Canada and the
National Police Federation.
Provincial protective services requires
$4.4 million due to salary pressures associated with the negotiated salary
settlements and operating costs associated with the provincial public safety
telecommunications network radio fees. Community corrections requires
$2.4 million due to salary pressures associated with the negotiated salary
settlements.
With that I will now be pleased to
answer any questions the committee may have on these additional costs for the
Ministry of Corrections, Policing and Public Safety.
Chair
Steele: — Thank
you, Minister. Any questions? I recognize Ms. Sarauer.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you, Mr.
Chair. Thank you, Minister, for your opening comments. Let’s first start with
the CBA negotiations. Can you speak to what that percentage increase looked
like for in-scope, and then the corresponding out-of-scope increase as well?
Denise Macza:
— Hi. Denise Macza, deputy minister of Corrections, Policing and Public Safety.
So the in-scope collective bargaining settlement is, the annual wage increase
is 3 per cent on October 9th, 2022; 3 per cent on October 8th, 2023; 1.6 per
cent on October 6, 2024, plus an increase of 0.4 per cent for pensions for
members who are not already at 9 per cent.
The out-of-scope economic adjustments
are, April 1st, 2023 is 3 per cent; April 1st, 2024 is 3 per cent; November
1st, 2024 is 3.4 per cent; April 1st, 2025 is 1.67 per cent.
Nicole Sarauer: — Have all employees
now received both their retro pay and their increase moving forward?
Denise Macza:
— The out-of-scope have not and are expected to get it in January.
Nicole Sarauer: — But in-scope have?
Denise Macza:
— Yeah.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you. I would
also like to know the number of FTEs in scope and out of scope that are
affected by this.
[16:15]
Denise Macza
— Hi, yes, Denise Macza, Deputy Minister of Corrections, Policing, Public
Safety. So the most recent information we have in terms of the number of FTEs,
about 200,900 in-scope and a little over 300 out-of-scope individuals are
affected.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you for
that. Let’s talk a bit about the pressures within the correctional facilities
that your ministry is experiencing right now. You had talked a little bit about
increased inmate counts, and you also mentioned a corresponding resulting
increase in overtime. Can you provide some more detail as to the increase in
overtime that your ministry is experiencing within the correctional facilities?
Scott Harron:
— Scott Harron, assistant deputy minister of custody services with Corrections,
Policing and Public Safety.
So in two different types of overtime,
there’s kind of the contingency staffing overtime. It’s things like
one-on-ones, hospital shifts, the contingency spaces as a result of the
increased numbers — that’s about $27 million of the overtime. The remainder
6.6 I would bulk into kind of a generic overtime — covering off for people who
are training, sick leave, that sort of thing.
There’s also two things we’re
undertaking in order to alleviate overtime pressures. The first is staff
recruitment. So last year we developed a talent recruitment team, and they’ve
been pulling in some phenomenal numbers. I think we’re probably the best placed
in Canada when it comes to corrections officer recruitment. Of course if you
don’t have the vacancies, you have more staff; your overtime numbers decrease.
We have doubled the number of new recruits,
more than doubled the number of new recruits we’ve brought in over the past
year. A 70 per cent increase in the number of applications to those positions.
A 300 per cent increase in the number of women we’re bringing into corrections
facilities, and a 50 per cent increase in the number of Indigenous candidates
that we’re bringing into the custody facilities as well. So not only is that
helping us alleviate our overtime pressures, but it’s quite literally changing
the face of corrections. So it’s something I’m particularly proud of.
The second thing we’re doing is
increasing our float pool staffing. We don’t have enough time to get into the
complexities around corrections staffing, other than to say the float pool is
the group of people you bring in, anticipating things such as the need to send
people for hospital visits; people covering off sick leave, vacation, that sort
of thing.
By doing this we’re converting
essentially 150 FTEs to full-time positions, permanently staffing a number of
these spots so that we don’t have to call people on overtime. Not only will
that help us control costs, it’ll be easier to schedule. It’s better for the
employees because they’re not being called off . . . to come in on
their days constantly. It’s also better for the new recruits, who previously
used to have to wait for years for a permanent position but will now be able to
get one much, much sooner.
So the combination of those two, we’re
hoping, will have a significant impact on our overtime.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you for that
answer. And you anticipated quite a few of the subsequent questions I was going
to have for you. I’m going to ask a few around the details that you have just
provided though, if that’s all right.
I was curious about how many current
vacancies there are. And I’m very happy to hear about the recruitment efforts
that you made, but where are you currently sitting in terms of vacancies?
Scott Harron:
— Scott Harron, assistant deputy minister, custody services. We currently have
73 vacancies across the system. That’s about a 3.8 per cent vacancy rate, which
is a very healthy vacancy rate. We also just graduated 103 new recruits at the
end of November, which isn’t included in that vacancy rate, so they’ll be able
to fill a number of those. So quite, quite healthy.
Nicole Sarauer: — I was wondering if
— and I’m sure you’re watching this closely — are there any hot spots in terms
of vacancies? Do you find that one facility has more vacancies than the other?
Scott Harron:
— Scott Harron, assistant deputy minister, custody services. Not particularly.
We’ve got a really good recruitment team that keeps track of where we may need
people, and it hasn’t been a problem.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you for
that. What about sick leave, sick time? Do you have numbers in terms of the
sick time impact?
Scott Harron:
— Scott Harron, assistant deputy minister, custody services. Very consistent to
last year. Sick leave is 117,897 hours; vacation hours is 142,893.
Nicole Sarauer: — Do you know what
that averages per employee and how that compares to other roles within various
ministries?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
We can certainly endeavour to get the breakdown on a per-employee basis. We
don’t have the comparative data to other ministries.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you,
Minister. Can you provide a timeline as to when you can provide that
information to the committee?
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
That can be provided before the end of the month.
Nicole
Sarauer: — Thank you so much. Similarly I was
curious to know about WCB [Workers’ Compensation Board] and OH & S
[occupational health and safety] claims and that impact as well on employee
absences. Do you have any of that information?
Scott Harron: — Scott Harron,
assistant deputy minister, custody services. We currently have 19 employees who
are on WCB. We have 1,915 FTEs. That’s a very small percentage overall. We have
98 staff who are on some sort of leave, not enough to make a big dent in terms of
our overall numbers.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you so much.
Conscious of the time, I just have a couple more questions for you in custody
services. But can you provide a point-in-time count — you usually have that
available as well as percentages per facility — if possible as well, please?
Scott Harron: — Scott Harron,
assistant deputy minister, custody services. Counting going down the list:
Regina Correctional Centre today has 737; that’s 94 per cent capacity.
Saskatoon Correctional Centre has 623; that’s 123 per cent capacity. And then
of course we’ve got the new remand centre opening there shortly.
Prince Albert Correctional Centre has
624 at 126 per cent capacity. Pine Grove Correctional Centre has 208; that’s
125 per cent capacity. Prince Albert Youth Residence has a unit that their
secure unit was transitioned over to women that has 24 in there; that’s 100 per
cent capacity for that unit.
Saskatchewan Hospital North Battleford
has 76 individuals there at 79 per cent capacity. White Birch remand centre has
20 at 125 per cent capacity. Whitespruce Provincial Training Centre out in
Yorkton has 33; that’s 85 per cent. Besnard Lake Correctional Camp has 20, and
that’s 80 per cent capacity. And the impaired driver treatment program has 16
at 53 per cent capacity.
That’s the adults. I assume you want the
youth as well? Youth, Kilburn Hall has 32 at 71 per cent utilization; Paul
Dojack Youth Centre has 58 at 73 per cent; and Prince Albert Youth Residence
has 8 at 57 per cent.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you for
that. I appreciate that a lot. I have more questions I will save for the spring
when we have a bit more time together. I’m going to move on and ask some
questions around wildfires, please.
You have mentioned in your supplemental
estimates, Minister, that there is an increase to the budget for SPSA
[Saskatchewan Public Safety Agency] due to increased wildfire response
activities. Could you provide some more information, please?
[16:30]
Marlo
Pritchard: —
Marlo Pritchard, president, Saskatchewan Public Safety Agency. It was a busy
year. We had 593 wildfires, over 830 000 hectares burned this year. That
is well above the five-year average of 393. And then in 2023 we had 483. So
we’ve had back-to-back very busy years, which of course required us to put in a
lot of resources, both type 1’s, type 2’s, and type 3 staff. We also requested
assistance from other provinces in regards to both air assets and resources on
the ground.
I’m not sure what else you need to
elaborate, but it was really about a response season that started early. We did
have a little bit of a break in June when we had extra moisture and then it
went long. We just finally wrapped up some of the wildfires in late October, so
it was a long season for us.
Nicole Sarauer: — How many years has
it been now where we’ve seen above-average fire activity in Saskatchewan?
Marlo
Pritchard: — I’m going
to say the last three were above average. We did have a break in 2020 where we
saw flooding, but the trend has continued over the last number, at least the
last five years.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you. I know,
and you’ve alluded to this, depending on the amount of fire activity, you bring
in more staff. But you do have a core base of permanent staff. Can you provide
some information as to those numbers, those individuals? And then the amount of
people you had to bring in this time?
Marlo Pritchard:
— Marlo Pritchard, president, SPSA. We have 457 FTEs that’s our core of
individuals. We bring on labour service type 2s as well during the season
depending on the seasonal response. And then we also have access to
community-trained individuals, type 3s. Again, those are as needed.
Anticipating one of your other
questions, our out-of-scope are 78.7 and in-scope are 378. We typically, you
know, over the long term have staff broken into teams in different regions. We
have 13 different bases for different regions and we move resources around the
province depending on the severity of the area. And so that is our base FTE
count.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you for
that. Can you explain to the committee how information is provided from the
SPSA to residents of an area that may be about to be under the effect of a fire
fire? Of a fire, sorry, not sure why I said it twice.
Marlo Pritchard:
— It starts with our local regional offices with our protection officers and
our ESOs [emergency services officer] that are in contact with those
communities or individuals that are in those communities. That is our first
point of contact. And that information is on our website.
As the season ramps up — I’ll use that
term — we do utilize our website for information and we also use social media,
but it always goes back to our ESOs who, if there is an area that is being
threatened, they will go into that area and meet with leadership, community
leaders, individuals. So it’s really around that connection with that
community.
Nicole Sarauer: — Thank you for that
answer. I have no further questions at this time. But before I cede my
microphone I do want to take the opportunity to say thank you to you, Minister,
for your thoughtful answers to my questions as well as to all of your officials
for answering my questions this afternoon, the questions of the committee, as
well as all of the work you do each and every day in your very important roles.
Please, Minister, pass along my thank you to your Justice officials as well,
please.
Chair
Steele: — Thank you so much. Seeing no more
questions, we’ll move to vote. I’ll ask the minister for any closing remarks.
Hon. Tim
McLeod: —
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would just echo the thanks to my officials but also to
yourself and to the committee as well as the Legislative Assembly staff and
Hansard for your patience and for your thoughtful questions. Thank you.
Chair
Steele: — Thank you. Okay, we’ll move into a
vote. Vote 73, Corrections, Policing and Public Safety, Saskatchewan Public
Safety Agency, subvote (CP06) in the amount of 35,000,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Agreed. Carried. Saskatchewan Police
Commission, subvote (CP12) in the amount of 516,000, is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Okay. Custody, supervision,
and rehabilitation services, subvote (CP13) in the amount of 48,000,771. Is
that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Policing and community safety
services, subvote (CP15) in the amount of 12,878,000. Is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. Corrections, Policing and
Public Safety, vote 73 — 97,165,000.
I will now ask for a member to vote the
following resolution:
Resolved that there
be granted to His Majesty for the 12 months ending March 31, 2025, the
following sum for Corrections, Policing and Public Safety in the amount of
97,165,000.
Is that agreed?
Hon. Lori Carr: — I’ll so move.
Chair
Steele: — MLA Carr. Is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried.
Okay committee members you have before
you a draft of the first report of the Standing Committee on Crown and Central
for the thirtieth legislature. We require a member to move the following
motion:
That the first
report of the Standing Committee on Crown and Central Agencies for the
thirtieth legislature be adopted and presented to the Assembly.
I recognize MLA Carr.
Hon. Lori Carr: — I move:
That the first
report of the Standing Committee on Crown and Central Agencies for the
thirtieth legislature be adopted and presented to the Assembly.
Chair
Steele: — Is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. That concludes our business
for the day. I would ask the member to move a motion of adjournment.
Hon. Lori Carr: — I so move we
adjourn.
Chair
Steele: — MLA Carr has moved for adjournment.
Is that agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
Chair
Steele: — Carried. The committee stands
adjourned to the call of the Chair. Thanks for your patience.
[The committee adjourned at 16:41.]
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