CONTENTS
Standing Committee on Crown and Central Agencies
SaskBuilds and
Procurement Vote 13
TWENTY-NINTH
LEGISLATURE
of
the
Legislative Assembly of Saskatchewan
CROWN
AND CENTRAL AGENCIES
Hansard Verbatim Report
No.
35 — Monday, April 22, 2024
The
Chair: — All right. Well good afternoon, Mr.
Minister, officials, committee members. Welcome. My name is Ken Cheveldayoff,
and I’ll serve as your Chair this afternoon. Other members of the committee are
Steven Bonk, Fred Bradshaw, Noor Burki, Terry Jenson, Dana Skoropad, and Doyle
Vermette. Today Trent Wotherspoon will be substituting in for Doyle Vermette,
Daryl Harrison is here for Fred Bradshaw, and Matt Love is here for Noor Burki.
Today the committee will be considering
the 2024‑25 estimates and the 2023‑24 supplementary estimates
no. 2 for vote 13, SaskBuilds and Procurement, and the 2024‑25
estimates for vote 86, SaskBuilds Corporation.
General Revenue Fund
SaskBuilds and Procurement
Vote 13
Subvote (SP01)
The
Chair: — We will begin with vote 13,
SaskBuilds and Procurement, central management and services, subvote (SP01).
Minister Hargrave is here with his officials. I will remind officials to
identify themselves before they speak and not to touch the microphones. The Hansard
operator will turn them on for you.
Minister
Hargrave, please make your opening comments and introduce your officials.
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I’m
pleased to be here to present the estimates for the Ministry of SaskBuilds and
Procurement for the year ’24‑25. Joining me today are Deputy Minister
Denise Macza; chief financial officer Mark Kleefeld; assistant deputy minister,
infrastructure design and delivery Sara Nichols; assistant deputy minister of
operations and service delivery Jill Zimmer; chief procurement officer Karen
Cossitt; executive director of operations and infrastructure for the
information technology division Blake Fleischhaker; executive director of
corporate finance Hera Kang; executive director of information security Fuad
Iddrisu; and last but certainly not least, my chief of staff Sean Wilson.
I think I got everybody, pretty much.
Anybody else will have to identify themselves when they come to the microphone.
And everybody’ll get a chance.
This is my first year presenting the
estimates for our ministry, and I want to thank them for joining me here today
and also for the work they do throughout the year. SBP [SaskBuilds and
Procurement] is where infrastructure and centralized services meet to support
government advancing its growth agenda, which means it plays a unique role in
supporting the investments made through this year’s budget. The ministry
provides central coordination and delivery of property management, information
technology, procurement, project management, transportation, and other support
services to government ministries and agencies.
In collaboration with SaskBuilds
Corporation, the ministry integrates, coordinates, and prioritizes
infrastructure planning and delivery for the province of Saskatchewan and
advances projects through contract oversight, innovative approaches, and
alternative financing models as appropriate. Since becoming minister last
August, I’ve learned how important it is to have a single organization in
government that brings these functions together, for example, about one of the
most important things any government can do — building infrastructure.
Every school, hospital, health centre,
and long-term care centre that we fund requires planning, design, procurement,
construction, and commissioning before it can open to serve the community it’s
built in. SaskBuilds and Procurement is involved at every stage, and that
ensures continuity throughout each project’s life cycle. And that’s a very good
thing indeed because this year’s budget delivers the largest total capital
budget in Saskatchewan history, the largest Crown corporation capital budget in
Saskatchewan’s history, and the largest executive government capital budget in
Saskatchewan’s history.
Budget ’24‑25 is investing an
all-time-high $4.4 billion in capital projects this fiscal year to support
classrooms, care, and communities and meet the growing needs of our province
and the families who call Saskatchewan home. This record capital funding is
part of nearly $18 billion that will be invested over the next four years.
I’m happy to inform the committee that thanks to this year’s record investments
in infrastructure, we are on track to exceed our growth plan goal of investing
$30 billion in infrastructure by 2030.
I would also like to share that this
year’s capital plan funding means our government has now invested approximately
47.2 billion since 2008‑2009 to meet the growing infrastructure
needs of Saskatchewan families and communities. The ’24‑25 capital plan
provides approximately $2.6 billion in capital projects by Crown
corporations and nearly 1.9 billion in capital projects across executive
government.
I’d like to spend some time on the
executive government portion of the capital plan today. That’s because our
ministry not only coordinates the capital planning for executive government,
but the ministry also leads the planning and development of projects in several
sectors in collaboration with other ministries and sector partners.
The
first of these sectors is health. This year’s capital plan includes the largest
investment ever made in health capital in Saskatchewan’s history, more than
$516.8 million. This represents an increase of nearly $180 million
compared to the previous year. This record investment will support a number of
ongoing major projects, including $180 million for construction of the
Prince Albert Victoria Hospital redevelopment project; $55 million for
construction of the Weyburn General Hospital replacement project; $27 million
for construction of the La Ronge long-term care home project; 21.9 million
to complete construction of the Regina General Hospital parkade project;
$20 million to support procurement and design activities on the Regina
long-term care specialized beds project; 10 million for construction of
the Grenfell long-term care home; $3 million to continue work on Saskatoon
urgent care centre; 2.8 million for the St. Paul’s front entrance
expansion project; 2.5 million to advance the Estevan long-term care redevelopment
project; 1.5 million to advance the Watson long-term care project;
1 million for planning for the Yorkton regional health centre replacement
project; and 750,000 to advance planning on various projects, including St.
Anthony’s Hospital in Esterhazy, Rosthern Hospital, and the Battleford District
Care Centre
The Government of Saskatchewan has
invested more than $2.9 billion to support the maintenance and
construction of new health care facilities since 2008‑2009.
The next sector I would like to
highlight for the committee is the education sector, where this year’s budget
is investing 216 million in school infrastructure. This includes
165.9 million to support ongoing projects, including 11 new or
consolidated school projects and three major renovations in Lanigan, Carlyle,
La Loche, Saskatoon, Moose Jaw, Regina, Prince Albert, Balgonie, and Wilcox;
and 28.5 million for the relocatable classroom program to support
enrolment growth.
8.8 million in funding to begin
planning for nine new schools and two renovations, including Minahik Waskahigan
High School replacement in Pinehouse, new Regina east joint-use facility for a
public and Catholic elementary school, new Saskatoon east joint-use facility
for a public and Catholic high school, South Corman Park renovations, Swift
Current Comprehensive High School renovations, new Regina east joint-use
facility for a public and Catholic high school preplanning, and new Saskatoon
east joint-use facility for a public and Catholic elementary school
preplanning; $12.8 million for minor capital renewal projects that allow
school divisions to address structural repairs and renovations to prolong the
life of schools across the province.
I’m happy to say that the Government of
Saskatchewan has committed approximately $2.6 billion towards school
capital since 2008‑09. This includes 69 new schools, 32 major renovation
projects, and seven projects approved through the minor capital renewal
program.
This year’s budget also invests
$59 million in post-secondary infrastructure. This includes
24.6 million for maintenance upgrades to help meet the needs of students
and staff; 8.7 million for an electrical and mechanical infrastructure
upgrade at the U of S [University of Saskatchewan]; 7.8 million
to support new domestic health care training programs, occupational therapy,
speech language pathology, and physician assistant programs; 6.3 million
for a cooling tower replacement at U of R [University of Regina];
6 million for planning for work for Saskatchewan Polytech’s new Saskatoon
campus; 3.5 million for further expansion in health care training
programs; and $610,000 to expand the student health care centre at the
University of Regina. This means that our government has now committed more
than $839.7 million in post-secondary infrastructure across the province
since 2008‑2009.
This budget also invests
301.9 million in government services infrastructure, including
78.9 million in various water-related infrastructure programs;
60.8 million for courts and correctional facilities and equipment,
including continued construction of the remand expansion at the Saskatoon
Correctional Centre; 21.7 million for the development of supportive
housing spaces in Regina and Saskatoon and to repair and maintain, replace
provincially owned housing units; and 13.1 million for capital projects
through the park system to improve visitor experience, including construction
of the new service centre at Nut Point Campground in Lac La Ronge Provincial
Park. Improvements and upgrades will also take place at Pike Lake, Narrow
Hills, Moose Mountain, Rowan’s Ravine, and Crooked Lake provincial parks, as
well as Cypress Hills Interprovincial Park.
The ’24‑25 capital plan also
includes 417.3 million in transportation infrastructure through the
Ministry of Highways and 350.1 million in transfers to municipalities for
infrastructure projects through several programs, including Investing in Canada
Infrastructure Program, Canada Community-Building Fund, and the New Building
Canada Fund.
And now I’d like to provide an overview
of what this year’s budget means for our ministry’s operations overall. This is
by and large a status quo budget for SaskBuilds and Procurement where we will
continue to stay the course on our existing core activities in support of
government priorities.
As a central agency, SaskBuilds and
Procurement is funded in two ways. First we have an expense budget made up of
funding appropriated directly to our ministry that is used to support our own
operations. The second way we are funded is through revenues recovered from
clients. This funding is appropriated through our client ministries which we
then recover from them for some of our services.
Overall this year the ministry has
budgeted to spend $887.2 million and will recover 730.4 million from
client ministries for services provided. The ministry expense budget is
73.5 million, an increase of $6 million, of just under 9 per cent.
The ministry’s capital funding for ’24‑25 is 84.6 million, an
increase of 23.7 million or 39 per cent. This year’s total appropriated
budget for the ministry is $156.8 million. This is an increase of
21.64 million or 16 per cent.
As the committee will know, SaskBuilds
and Procurement was created to oversee a new approach to the management of all
infrastructure projects and assets, standardized government procurement and IT
[information technology] infrastructure; as well as support several important
long-term government commitments that are set out in Saskatchewan’s Growth
Plan, investing more than $30 billion over the next decade to build the
infrastructure to support a growing province, a stronger economy, and a better
quality of life for Saskatchewan people; delivering a modern approach to IT
service delivery and procurement and leveraging government procurement and
supply chains to support the development and growth of Saskatchewan businesses.
During ’23‑24 the procurement
management division was involved in awarding over 750 procurements valued at
approximately $991 million. Approximately 89.6 per cent of those
procurements, valued at 888 million, were awarded to Saskatchewan-based
companies. Our procurement team also works hard to ensure that the Government
of Saskatchewan’s procurement comply with our province’s obligation under the
various treaty agreements Saskatchewan has signed onto, including the New West
Partnership Trade Agreement, Canada free trade agreement, the Canada-European
Union trade agreement, the comprehensive economic and trade agreement, and the
World Trade Organization agreement.
[15:15]
Trade compliance is a key priority,
because not only does it ensure our province isn’t penalized in accordance with
the provisions of these agreements, it also helps establish a more level
playing field for Saskatchewan companies and suppliers to do business outside
of our province.
Of course it’s almost impossible to
discuss procurement these days without acknowledging that the global supply
chain continues to be subject to volatility due to geographical uncertainty and
trade disruptions. This results in a lack of reliability and predictability on
both production of goods and materials and the timeliness of delivery. This
volatility and uncertainty in upstream material and component availability for
certain items is leading to lengthy delays and budget pressures in project
delivery.
Some factors driving the supply chain
disruption resulting in cost increases are inability to source base materials,
inability to source value-added components, significantly higher freight costs
due to limited global freight carry availability to meet demand, delays in
custom points, and domestic shipping and warehousing capacity.
Saskatchewan is not immune to these
challenges, but neither are we alone in facing them. We know that other
provinces and territories are facing similar challenges, and we continue to
connect with our colleagues in other jurisdictions to share information, learn
from each other’s experiences, and seek solutions together where we can.
For example, new vehicle manufacturers
have experienced significant production delays and supply shortages since the COVID‑19
pandemic. Through the New West Partnership our ministry’s central vehicle
agency and colleagues in other participating provinces of Alberta, British
Columbia, and Manitoba have reached out to manufacturers to discuss efficient
ways to receive and procure vehicles based on manufacturers’ bill schedules.
Levering the New West Partnership and
working together has established a continuous supply of vehicles, however, that
there have been overall supply shortages due to the shortage of key components,
the supply shortage has resulted in increased vehicle prices over the last
several years which may continue through 2024.
We are also seeing a high demand for
construction services nationwide. While we are very excited that Saskatchewan
continues to attract major private sector investments across multiple sectors,
I would be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge that the demand for construction
services may result in continued elevated prices due to limited labour capacity
and high demand for construction materials.
We will continue to work with the
industry to ensure that the coming public sector investments do not result in
adding increased supply change pressures, potential labour shortages, and
extended project timelines. This includes taking a collaborative approach and
leveraging industry expertise to identify potential short- and long-term
solutions including sharing more robust information regarding project timelines
and procurement, releasing dates with Saskatchewan industry, working with
industry to source or allow alternative materials or processes where possible
to alleviate supply challenges, monitoring inflationary pressures and changes
to cost of materials and labour availability, and working with client and
partner ministries and industry stakeholders to identify opportunities for
flexibility with our procurement and delivery approaches.
As far as the annual capital plan
development process, SaskBuilds and Procurement also works with ministries,
agencies, treasury Crown board partners, and the SaskBuilds board to identify
options for strategic public sector projects in construction in the coming
years to ensure economic recovery is sustained into the future.
Sadly there’s another equally important
challenge that Saskatchewan is not immune from — cyber threats and attacks.
Cyber attacks are constantly evolving, becoming more intense, more frequent,
and more sophisticated. As the IT provider for the Government of Saskatchewan,
it is our ministry’s responsibility to do everything we can to protect
government systems, information data, as well as the information entrusted to
us by the public.
The Ministry of SaskBuilds and
Procurement is leading a one-government approach to cyber security by
collaborating with government agencies, boards, and Crowns to improve
information sharing, coordinate responses, enhance protection, and improve
public trust in government’s ability to address cyber risks and security.
In ’24‑25 SaskBuilds and
Procurement will continue to invest 3.2 million into cyber security
initiatives. As cyber threats continue to increase in quantity and complexity,
SaskBuilds and Procurement is committed to a proactive approach to protect
information and manage risk. As the number of cybercriminals and the nature of
their attacks continue to grow and evolve, our ministry will continue to learn
and improve ourselves to meet this challenge as part of our commitment to our
clients across government and to the public.
Another key way we support both our
government, clients, and members of the public is through the safe, reliable,
professional management of government buildings, facilities, properties through
our operations and service delivery division. Our ministry operates and
maintains hundreds of government-owned and -leased properties in dozens of
communities across Saskatchewan and are used by client ministries to provide
programs and services to citizens.
This division includes the Saskatchewan
air ambulance service, which provides province-wide emergency medical
evacuation 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. SaskBuilds and Procurement owns and
operates a fleet of four King Air 200 aircraft. While the medical service is
administered by Saskatchewan Health Authority, the air ambulance service
conducts approximately 1,500 patient transfers per year and flies approximately
1 million kilometres each year. This division also provides transportation
services through the CVA [central vehicle agency] as well as mail and
telecommunication services.
Our ministry also provides funding for
the Provincial Archives of Saskatchewan — 4.3 million is included in the
budget to protect and preserve Saskatchewan’s rich history through funding of
Provincial Archives of Saskatchewan this year.
Mr. Chair, I would now be happy to take
questions about the ministry’s estimates for ’24‑25. Thank you very much.
The
Chair: — Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.
Mr. Wotherspoon, the floor is yours.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thank you,
Minister, for your brief remarks here this afternoon. I want to thank all the
officials that have joined us here today, all the leadership for SaskBuilds,
and all those that are involved in the work that we’ll be discussing here this
afternoon.
Can you list, Minister, the Crowns and
ministries you’re responsible for providing the tendering and procurement
services for? And it might be easier, just which ministries and Crowns you’re
not responsible for.
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — Yes. Yeah, we’ll say the ones that
we don’t provide service for and that would be any of the Crown Investments
Corporation Crowns and the treasury board Crowns. If asked, we would provide
advice, but we don’t control them.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — And that list includes the SHA
[Saskatchewan Health Authority], correct?
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — Correct.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Are there any exceptions, any
instances where the ministries and Crowns provide the tendering and procurement
services on an exception basis, or where you provide them on an exception basis
for Crowns?
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — As far as the Crowns go, no, we
don’t. Now we have on occasion — or I think on one occasion — provided advice
to the Water Security Agency. But really only if asked, we provide advice. But
we don’t provide a service for them.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — What about with the ministries that
you’re providing this, that you provide this service for, right across the
ministries? Are there exceptions where they would, or instances where they
would deliver those services themself?
Ms. Cossitt:
— Good afternoon. My name’s Karen Cossitt. I’m the chief procurement officer.
And in response to that question, I think that . . . Sorry, just one
moment.
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — Repeat the question.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Sure. So the question is, are there
exceptions where a ministry delivers or, instances where they procure those
services, handle tendering themself? And if there are, could you provide a list
of the specific procurement pieces where the ministry delivered that
themselves?
Ms.
Cossitt: — Oh sure. Thank you. So the
ministries, executive government ministries can do their own procurements on
under-trade-threshold amounts. And so that’s for goods under 10,000, for
services under 75,000, and for construction under 100,000, they are allowed to
do their own procurements. Everything that has to be publicly procured has to
come through the Ministry of SaskBuilds and Procurement.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Thank you. Minister, could you
explain why the property management subvote financing charges are down by
$8 million this year compared to last year’s budget?
Mr.
Kleefeld:
— Mark Kleefeld, chief financial officer. So the reduction you’re seeing is
attributable entirely to just an accounting entry. So it’s the PSAB [Public
Sector Accounting Board] section 3160 that I think folks will have heard a fair
bit about this year and last with respect to prior year P3 [public-private
partnership] obligations.
And so what had happened here was we are
obligated to provide basically a financing expense against our P3 obligations.
When the new PSAB regulations took place last year, we were required to book
the expense actually at government’s weighted average cost of capital as
opposed to the cost of capital at the time that the liability was taken on.
So that happened in the prior year
budget. It falls off this year because these are expenses that happened in the
old year. It reflects nothing with respect to the actual operating budget for
operations moving forward.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Thanks so much. I’ll focus a few
questions here on procurement. Can you please advise on the rough percentage
and dollar breakdown on a dollar basis procurements that are through public
tenders, sole-source contracts, and other special arrangements in ’23‑24?
So breaking down by way of dollar value and percentage.
[15:30]
Mr. Kleefeld:
— Sure. Thank you. So we don’t have the hard numbers with us. What I would say
is it’s in limited cases. And there’s two situations in which this would
happen: just under trade thresholds and then emergency situations.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Would you be able to provide back to
us those amounts, Minister, back to this committee if it’s not available here
today, to break down the dollar values for those that were procured through
public tenders as opposed to sole-source tenders or other special arrangements?
Mr. Kleefeld:
— Yeah, so we don’t have that record now. We’ll take that under advisement.
Thank you.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — So as opposed to the percentages, so
breaking down those tranches, are you able to share the total value of
sole-sourced contracts then to be more specific about one tranche of
procurement there, Minister?
Mr. Kleefeld:
— Yeah, thank you again for the question. Again that’s not information I have.
One of the things to make clear, I guess, on this is that the very large
majority of any of these would be sole-sourced because they’re under trade
thresholds, which means that the ministries are not operating through our
process necessarily, right. So it would be a ministry-by-ministry question to
answer.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Right. Okay. So then for SaskBuilds
itself, could you detail for SaskBuilds how much was sole-sourced?
Mr. Kleefeld:
— Thank you. We don’t have that number with us today but we’ll take that under
advisement.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Okay. And, Minister, is this
information that you can commit to getting back to the committee?
Mr. Kleefeld:
— Oh for sure.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Thanks so much. With respect to that
tranche of sole-source contracts, can you list all and any sole-source
contracts over $20 million that occurred in ’23‑24, including the
name of the company or the individual that won the contract? Or that was
awarded the contract, I should say.
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — We’re not aware of any. We don’t
believe there’s any. But that said, we’ll look through our records and we’ll
get back to you. But far as I know, there’s nothing. As far as we know, there
is none.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Thanks so much. Same question, but
for threshold of 1 million to 20 million.
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — No, under the Ministry of SaskBuilds
there’s none that we know of. But again, like the other one, we’ll check our
records again. But nobody knows of any but we’ll look.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — And under 1 million then? Anything
under 1 million for SaskBuilds?
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — Sure.
Mr. Kleefeld:
— Thanks. And thanks for the time to discuss. Again it’s just not an item I
have records with me on. For us it’s . . . I would say there’s some
possibility that we have, you know, particularly like emergency kind of
procurements under that 1 million. So I think of things like sort of our
aviation services and that sort of thing. But you know, we certainly are taking
it under advisement that this would be a good record for us to maintain.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Sounds good. So it’s a similar
process, if the minister is able to make sure this information is brought back
to . . . provided to the Table again as well. What about if we’re
looking at the year ahead? Any budgeted plans on sole-source contracts in the
year ahead?
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — Short answer is no.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Would the minister describe a
sole-source contract as a commercial transaction I guess if there was no market
or no competition for the work being performed? So I guess the question
. . . What I’m trying to get at here is, would you describe the
sole-source contract as a commercial transaction if there’s perceived to be no
market for the work being performed? Maybe that’s the justification for going
with the one vendor.
Mr. Kleefeld:
— Sorry. And just to clarify the question, is it around the criteria by which
an organization might end up sole-sourcing, or about the definition of
sole-sourcing itself?
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— A little bit more of the definition of what you would perceive as a
commercial transaction. Maybe it would just flow into a second question here.
And it would be, would you allow a company to place a confidentiality clause
into a sole-source contract when there’s no other competition for that work or
it’s suggested there’s not other competition for that work? And the challenge
of course is then, if you have these clauses in something, it reduces the
public accountability.
[15:45]
Mr. Kleefeld:
— So thanks for the question. I think when we’re thinking about this, the key
distinction that we feel is really critical to make, that a sole-source is not
the same thing as when we have a competition and there’s one bidder, right. And
so we would have to carefully distinguish between those two things to kind of
better dig into the question.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— So in a sole-sourced environment then, would you allow a company to place a
confidentiality clause into a sole-source contract?
Mr.
Kleefeld: — I won’t be able to provide, you
know, a firm answer on that, and the reason being is that we would think that
that’s very context dependent and would really call for speculation. I think if
we were faced with that situation, you know, there’s a lot of agreement on our
side that we would look basically to the FOI [freedom of information]
guidelines for guidance on this. You know, typically things are excluded where
there’s commercially sensitive information, where there’s proprietary
information where it could prejudice the economic interests of the province.
Something like that.
So I do not have a hard and fast answer.
We would make that judgment call at the moment, and we would look mostly, not
exclusively I think, but mostly at the FOI guidelines for how we would do that.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— Who has the final say on the award of a tender, the client ministry or
SaskBuilds and Procurement?
Ms. Cossitt:
— Karen Cossitt again. So it’s the chief procurement officer — myself — and my
division that review each procurement that is publicly procured, and we have
the final say on the evaluation and the selection of that proponent. And then
it would be the client ministry that actually awards the contract that would
have to look at their budget, and so they do have an approval process to play
of course.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Thanks for that. Who has to approve
a sole-source contract? The client ministry or SaskBuilds and Procurement?
Ms. Macza:
— Good afternoon. Denise Macza, deputy minister of SaskBuilds and Procurement.
So with regard to your question, each ministry is responsible for determining
the authority they need to sole-source a contract.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— Who at SaskBuilds has the authority to approve a sole-source contract?
Ms.
Macza:
— Denise Macza, deputy minister, SaskBuilds and
Procurement again. So in respect to SaskBuilds the ultimate authority rests
with me, the deputy minister. But depending on the situation, depending on the contract
and the particulars, authority can be delegated downwards to other levels of
the ministry. Ultimately the delegation of authority is set out along the
guidelines of the FAM [financial administration manual] manual.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— Thanks for that. Does the Minister of SaskBuilds and Procurement have to
approve sole-source or special-arrangement contracts or contract processes?
Ms. Macza:
— The minister does not grant approval for procurements.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — What about the ministry? Is the
ministry . . . Is the approval of the Ministry of SaskBuilds
required?
Ms. Macza:
— For the granting of procurements of other ministries, or the Ministry of
SaskBuilds?
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — For any sole-source contracts of
other ministries as well.
Ms. Cossitt:
— Oh, I don’t have to hit that. Sorry. I will stop touching buttons. It’s Karen
Cossitt. And sorry, the answer is no, we really don’t.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — So a ministry could proceed with a
sole-source contract. You may have been involved with the process, but
SaskBuilds itself doesn’t have to grant approval for them to proceed?
Ms. Cossitt:
— So for sole-sources for other ministries we can provide advice and
assistance. And so SaskBuilds, the ministry, can provide that advice but ultimately
the sole-source contract and decision is with the ministry.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— Has SaskBuilds and Procurement been involved in any processes regarding
contracts in ’23‑24 that have specific requirements with respect to
northern or Indigenous ownership? And if so, can you please list them,
including the ministry involved and the specific requirement?
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — These are, though, the estimates for
’24‑25. You’ve missed it by a year. ’23‑24 is not up for debate on
the estimates for ’24‑25.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Fair enough. Can you just apply that
same question to the current budget year? Has SaskBuilds and Procurement been
involved or will you be involved in processes that you’re aware of for
contracts that have specific requirements with respect to northern Indigenous
ownership? And then if so, just specify the ministry in the contract.
[16:00]
The
Chair: — I’ll just maybe jump in here. I just
want to remind the minister and the opposition member and all members and
officials. So we’re dealing specifically with the supplementary estimates for
’23‑24. Supplementary estimates are very, very specific to the topics —
office equipment and information technology; remediation of contaminated sites;
land, buildings, and improvements. And I think the minister and the member have
worked it out themselves, but I just wanted to reiterate. And ’24‑25
estimates are a wider scope as well. So very good. Continue, Minister.
Ms.
Macza: — So we have a number of projects in
northern Saskatchewan that have an impact on the Indigenous community. You
know, there are a number of schools that are happening in northern
Saskatchewan. There’s a number of projects in La Ronge like the La Ronge LTC
[long-term care], the La Ronge health care centre.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— And what more specifically are requirements with respect to northern or
Indigenous ownership as part of a requirement for procurement?
Ms.
Macza: — Thank you. At this time we’re not
aware of any procurements that require Indigenous ownership as part of that
process. But having said that, there are a number of instances that we could
probably point to that have Indigenous aspect to the subcontracts they would
use to carry out their procurement obligations.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Could you list those? So I guess
ownership or labour, kind of a northern or Indigenous ownership or labour
. . . Do you want to list those procurements?
Ms.
Nichols: — Hi. Sara Nichols, assistant deputy
minister of infrastructure design and delivery. As part of the answer to your
question, I wanted to speak to some of the efforts we make on our major project
deliveries.
So in terms of our major projects, while
we work typically as government with the general contractors, we work to
encourage that engagement between the general contractors and the local
communities that they serve, including with Indigenous and northern communities
like in our projects in La Ronge. And so we encourage that and facilitate that
by hosting, you know, community sessions as we’re working with the general contractors.
And we look at value-added benefits to a project, including community
engagement. It’s not a scored item but it is an item that we encourage in all
of our major infrastructure projects.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Okay. So are you aware of any
contracts that have specific requirements for Indigenous labour or ownership?
Ms. Nichols:
— Sara Nichols. We would encourage that. It’s not a minimum criteria in the
performance of the contract, but it’s something that we have asked to get
information on as we’re launching some of our major projects.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Move along a bit to the
. . . I don’t know if it’s referred to as the EBMP [enterprise
business modernization project]. Is it EBMP or EBMP? What’s the proper way to
talk? Would EBMP or . . .
Ms. Macza:
— EBMP.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — EBMP. That’s what I thought, yeah. I
felt funny if I was maybe calling it . . . . Can you explain what the
EBMP system is and including the functions that it provides and which parts of
government will be using the system? And also which ministry is responsible for
the EBMP system?
Ms. Csada:
— Good afternoon. Brittany
Csada, the assistant deputy minister and executive project
sponsor for the enterprise business modernization project, or EBMP. So a bit
about what EBMP is. EBMP will implement a new government-wide, cloud-based IT
solution for an integrated financial, human resource, and supply chain
management system. It will provide better services, including increased
automation and efficiency for users of financial, human resource, and supply
chain services.
The new system will replace more than 60
systems that we use today to provide those back office services. Many of these
are reaching their end of life and will require millions of dollars in
investment to maintain. Having these numerous business systems means that
significant manual processes are being used to support those human resource,
finance, and procurement areas.
So while this is an enterprise project
that will impact all of government, the most impacted are the five partner
ministries. So SaskBuilds and Procurement provides the central coordination for
the project, and the other partner ministries are Corrections, Policing and
Public Safety; Finance; Highways; and the Public Service Commission.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— When was the EBMP system approved for development? And is the EBMP project
now completed, you know, with the exception of future development to it?
Ms. Csada:
— So the project was originally approved in October of 2020. And currently the
core system build is complete, and we are currently testing in the project
right now.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — How much capital funding has been
spent on the EBMP system, including software and specialized hardware, to date?
[16:15]
Ms. Csada:
— So thanks for the question. As of February, we spent 42.7 million on the
project in ’23‑24.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— And what’s the total to date on the project? And then what funding is
budgeted for the year ahead?
Ms. Csada:
— So as of February the capital spend to date for the project to design and
implement the system is 76.4 million. And for ’24‑25 the capital
budget for EBMP is 64.35 million.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— Do you know the capital requirements beyond that to get it to completion?
Ms. Csada:
— So thanks for the question. We cannot speculate on the future year budgets,
and the amount of capital will be dependent on the activities and deliverables
of the project this year.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Which companies were involved in the
development of the EBMP system from proposal or concept development to the
purchase of software to the development of the system and integration with
other government systems and software?
And
then I guess to that, how were the services of each company procured?
Sole-source, public tender, or some type of special procurement process? Just
please explain the special procurement that was used, if that’s the case.
Ms. Csada:
— So the Government of Saskatchewan procured Deloitte, whose consortium
includes Paradigm and Plato Sask Testing to provide business transformation and
system integrator services for the project.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Thanks so much. And do you know how
much each company’s been paid to date for their work on EBMP?
Ms. Csada:
— So as of February, the amount paid to Deloitte to date for the project to
design and implement the system has been 64.9 million. We’re not privy to
what amount of that would be to their consortium partners. And I know you asked
a question about kind of the procurement of that, so I’d invite Karen up to
speak more specifically to that.
Ms. Cossitt:
— Karen Cossitt again. So my division, the procurement management division, was
involved in the business transformation, advisory, and systems integrator
services procurement, called EBMP. It was procured . . . Originally
we put it out for public procurement in June of 2020. We went through proponent
conferences in July. In July we also had a deadline for questions, and
addendums were issued.
We closed the competition in August and
went into evaluations, and the proponent, Deloitte, was selected in September
of 2020. We had an independent, third-party fairness advisor throughout the
process to make sure that it was fair and transparent. We had five proponents
that provided submissions, and it was Deloitte that was the best valued
procurement proponent at that time.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Okay. Thanks for that information. I
don’t have a great tech background. I’m pretty good with the Commodore 64, and
PowerPoint is still . . . But I was wondering, does the EBMP system
use a similar or same software as the AIMS [administrative information
management system] system in Health?
Ms.
Csada: — Thanks. I would defer any of the
questions about AIMS to the Ministry of Health.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— Okay. Do you know if they . . . You don’t know whether there’s
similar software?
Ms.
Csada: — Yeah. I defer to them to speak to
their technology.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Okay. You know, again I’m no tech
expert over here either, so I’m not sure that I could assess the answers coming
in.
Maybe shifting along a bit to health. Of
course there’s been some discussion about recently government’s awarded a
contract, $6 million, with a private surgery clinic in Calgary called
Surgical Centres Inc., a division of Clearpoint Health Network, regarding hips
and knees. I guess, could you describe the procurement process for that
sole-source contract? And then if you could describe how you determined fair
value.
[16:30]
Ms. Cossitt:
— Karen Cossitt again. So the Ministry of Health consulted with myself, my
division, in January of 2023 regarding the strategy to send Saskatchewan
patients to Calgary for a limited temporary program, which is set to expire in
September of 2024, as per The Relief for Long-waiting Joint Replacement Patients
Regulations. At that time we looked at their business plan and what they
had done.
We advised that they were actually
exempt from trade agreements. And so health services, if you look up New West
Trade Partnership Agreement, is an exemption. And you can find that on SaskTenders.
We have a knowledge warehouse and our trade policy unit actually provides that
information. So that was some of our advice that we had provided. Even though
we provided that, we wanted to make sure that it’s a fair and transparent
process. That is why we do a lot of health procurement services, even though it
is exempt. So we looked to see what, you know, what their business plan was.
Due to the interim and urgent nature of
the agreement, we felt like it supported the rationale. Emergency purchases are
also exempt, so if an act or nature causes, you know, an immediate acquisition
for the service. So there was a need for that.
As well the Ministry of Health let us
know that they had contacted private surgical providers across western Canada
to gauge interest, capability, and capacity to provide that. And there was no
Saskatchewan respondents. So of the firms that responded, it was only
Clearpoint Health that indicated that they were capable. They had also let us
know that they had publicly announced that they were going out for
out-of-province surgery.
So given all of that information that it
was their intention to proceed with hip and knee surgery replacements, and the
urgency to proceed due to a significant backlog of patients waiting for surgery
as a result of COVID slowdown, COVID‑19 slowdown and long wait times, as
well as the interim nature, we had advised that we thought that that was
acceptable. But again, I would just reiterate that it was our advice.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— How did the price compare to the price of the same surgery within the
Saskatchewan health care system?
Ms.
Cossitt: — So the Ministry of Health would have
conducted that evaluation, and I don’t actually have that information. So that
would have to be an ask of the Ministry of Health.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — How many surgeries does this
contract allow for or provide for?
Ms.
Cossitt: — So I would just say that we provided
advice on the procurement and we don’t actually have the numbers for that.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Could you commit to providing that
back to the committee?
Ms.
Cossitt: — That would have to be from Health,
the Ministry of Health.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Would you be able to play a role in
communicating with Health to report back on that procurement?
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — We don’t have that mandate to be
able to do that from Health, and so I can’t provide that assessment. But they
would have the numbers on that contract. We just give them the advice on the
contract’s ability.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Okay. We’ll follow up there. With
respect to . . .
The
Chair: — I’ll just jump in there too. And the
member knows he could arrange for a written question to be asked. I think
Health has finished their time allotted. But yeah, it’s up to you.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— Thank you. With respect to highways, were all contracts awarded in ’23‑24
awarded through a regular process of advertising the work to be completed with
a full set of work specs, inviting bids, qualifying the bidders, and then
awarding the contract to the low bidder?
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — Of course that’s in relation again
to ’23‑24, not ’24‑25.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Is the minister — with respect to
highways for budgets that will flow from this fiscal year — is he aware or
could he speak to contracts that were awarded that through a . . .
Were they all awarded through a regular process of advertising the work to be
completed? Same question — work specs, inviting bids, qualifying the bidders,
and then awarding the contract to the low bidder?
Ms. Cossitt:
— So this is Karen Cossitt, and I would say for the procurements that we’re
involved in on behalf of the Ministry of Highways, the procurements are awarded
as per best value. So they use best value procurements, not just low bid. And
that would be standard practice for how those are procured and awarded.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Should we get a little bit of a
sense of . . . Obviously the Prince Albert hospital is so important
to the community. We’ve long advocated for it, as the minister knows. I know
the minister has long advocated for that hospital; he knows the community.
But the cost has just gone through the
roof, right, in the procurement here. And you know, I think the original
projection for the cost of the hospital, you know, was identified early on. The
government spoke to it kind of back in 2020 — so just, you know, four years ago
— to the tune of $200 million. And you know, then I see in 2023
. . . I’d ask the minister just to maybe . . . Yeah, I
guess the project then had increased at that point from 200 to 300, so it’s
sort of a 50 per cent increase in that period of time. But now we’re talking
$200 million to a billion dollars, right. So five times or 500 per cent
increase over just four years.
So I guess I’d like the minister to
break out what sort of inflationary pressures we’re dealing with on the
procurement of that hospital. You know, and if you look at the construction
industry, I think specific to that same period, 2017 to now, the increase has
been a 41 per cent increase that I see from Stats Canada. So I guess my
question is, how do you square this? Because 41 per cent’s large for sure, but
we’re talking 500 per cent here. So what do you account for the other 460 per
cent increase from the original budget?
Ms. Nichols:
— Thank you. Sara Nichols. Thank you for your question about costs on the
Prince Albert Victoria Hospital project. I’m going to answer with information
about three important components related to that cost.
As you know, the Prince Albert Victoria
Hospital project includes a new multi-level acute care tower connected to and
directly north of the existing facility. The tower features a helipad on the
roof; an expanded emergency department; larger modern operating rooms; adult
intensive care; adult mental health; perioperative services; pediatrics;
maternity services; neonatal intensive care; and medical imaging, including MRI
[magnetic resonance imaging] and second CT [computerized tomography] scanner;
as well as First Nations and Métis cultural space, among other key services. The
new tower will have 168 new beds, while overall capacity in the facility will
increase from 173 to 242.
[16:45]
Procurement competition, accurate cost
estimating, and effective contract management are three areas of continued
focus for SaskBuilds and Procurement, in particular on this project. First the
competition process used by the Government of Saskatchewan aims to get best
value for Saskatchewan while enhancing access, competition, and fairness.
Second, cost estimating helps the government determine if a project is feasible
and affordable. And finally SaskBuilds and Procurement’s contract management
approach extracts the value from each agreement. The three areas assist
SaskBuilds and Procurement in providing the greatest benefit to Saskatchewan for
each capital investment.
In relation to procurement competition,
during the height of the COVID‑19, contractors across Saskatchewan and Canada
became very selective in which projects they were pursuing due to the amount of
available work, unprecedented cost escalation, and labour shortages.
Saskatchewan, like the rest of Canada, experienced changing attitudes from
industry about risk allocation in common models used to deliver infrastructure.
Contractors became increasingly unwilling to own risks related to cost
escalation and the supply chain. Very quickly the appetite to engage in
fixed-price, fixed-state delivery models diminished.
In terms of the Prince Albert Victoria
Hospital, request for qualifications was publicly issued in December 2021 to
all parties interested in leading the design and construction of the Prince
Albert Victoria Hospital. A single team demonstrated that they met the
requirements and was short-listed to move on to the next stage of procurement.
Saskatchewan was not alone to receive
lower than expected bidders on active major health care projects. Provinces
such as British Columbia and Ontario also reacted to procurements with single
bidders. SaskBuilds and Procurements utilized the lessons learned in processes
utilized in British Columbia and Ontario in implementing a modified request for
proposals competition for the Prince Albert Victoria Hospital in response to
those market conditions.
A modified RFP [request for proposal] is
a competitive process in which a short-listed proponent develops and submits a
design and a series of proposals to demonstrate how it will meet the project’s
requirements. The short-listed proponent’s bids are assessed against a shadow
bid developed by an independent cost consultant to assess value and validate
current market conditions. In the case of the Prince Albert Victoria Hospital
project, the independent cost consultant reviewed PCL’s financial submission
and found that the cost was reasonable and appropriate.
In order to determine how SaskBuilds and
Procurement delivers a project, we use a procurement options analysis
methodology to identify the most appropriate procurement option. Think of this
like picking the right tool for a job. The options analysis assesses the
benefits and risks for a project and identifies a procurement option that is
best positioned to achieve the desired outcomes and objectives.
In many cases, SaskBuilds and
Procurement will deliver a project through design-bid-build, which is a
widespread model in which a designer and builder are contracted independently
and the project phases occur sequentially. In other cases, SaskBuilds and Procurement
may utilize construction management. In this model, SaskBuilds and Procurement
will hire a construction manager based on experience and qualifications to
oversee a project from design to construction closeout.
Some projects are better suited to
alternative delivery models such as design-build or progressive design-build as
we used in the Prince Albert Victoria Hospital projects. In these projects, a
designer and builder work together under a single contract to deliver the
project.
Another key factor in this question is
around cost estimating. Unprecedented times in the construction industry
created affordability challenges for public infrastructure across Saskatchewan,
Canada, and the world. Cost estimates produced prior to or throughout the global
pandemic could not predict the inflation and cost escalation later experienced.
Construction costs have risen
dramatically due to soaring inflation and interest rates, COVID‑19
delays, and supply chain disruptions and labour shortages. The record level of
private investment in the province has also impacted construction costs. While
it’s good news that Saskatchewan ranks second amongst provinces for private
capital investment in 2023 and is expected to rank first in 2024, the continued
investment such as BHP’s continued investment in the Jansen mine and expansions
in canola crush across Saskatchewan are raising the demand for contractors,
materials, and labour.
Increased costs underscore the need for
accurate cost estimating. Although cost estimates forecast in the future, they
reflect the economic realities at a point in time. Cost estimating occurs
across multiple stages throughout a project’s life cycle. In the beginning
stages of a project, an order of magnitude estimate is developed based on assumptions,
past projects, and historical information. As a project advances and detailed
requirements become known, the level of detail and the accuracy of the forecast
increases. At these stages, SaskBuilds and Procurement utilizes the expertise
of professional cost estimators. These . . .
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Can I just . . . This is
all good information. I’m just so cognizant, so we’re talking about a big
budget item and we have 10 minutes left in committee. You’re providing such
good information, so it’s sort of how do we suss through, you know, getting a
bit of the . . .
So
41 per cent is what Stats Canada says is the inflation over that same period
for non-residential construction. You’re identifying that there are extenuating
circumstances for Saskatchewan that’s driven that inflation rate higher. Is
that supported by Stats Canada? What’s the inflation rate in Saskatchewan
through that same period of time? We’ve seen 41 per cent from Stats Canada. Do
you have a different number? Of course, what we’re looking at here is a 500 per
cent increase.
The
Chair: — I’ll just remind committee members
we’ve got about seven minutes left here as we’re waiting for the answers.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Thank you. Maybe just as part of
that, you’re coming with response, which I appreciate. You were reading from a
document before. I’m just checking with the minister if it would be appropriate
to, because there’s substantive information I’m sure there, if it would be
appropriate to table that document.
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — No, it was just her personal notes.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Okay, that’s fair.
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — She does have more concise answers.
It won’t take long.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Okay.
Ms.
Nichols: — Thank you. Sara Nichols. In terms of
Statistics Canada comparisons that you spoke of, I also want to draw the
attention that the cost of concrete alone has increased 30 per cent since 2020
and the cost of steel are really driving project at an increase of 80 per cent
since 2020. And those are also Stats Canada results.
But I think it’s important also to look
at the estimate. And so that $300 million number that you spoke of, that
was announced as government’s commitment of at least 300 million to the project.
That was an order of magnitude. Since the project was announced additional
professional cost estimates have been completed as the requirements of the
project were figured out.
In terms of getting value for
Saskatchewan, which I think your question is, is how do we determine if our
price is fair? We also look to other jurisdictions and what their price was.
And so while health care facilities, in particular a large hospital, are very
complex facilities and they differ in terms of the services that they deliver —
so they’re not a perfect comparison — we have compared against similar
facilities recently announced in Manitoba, BC [British Columbia], and Ontario.
The cost per square foot on the Prince Albert Victoria Hospital expansion is
$2,044 a square foot. Recent projects announced in Manitoba, BC, and Ontario
are between 2,700 and $3,800 a square foot.
The rising costs and the dramatic rising
costs that we’re speaking of are more pronounced in the more complex
infrastructures. So a large hospital project is going to see more complexity
than some of the other types of infrastructure, and so we wanted to do that
analysis to compare to make sure that we could understand whether the price was
fair.
I spoke earlier also of the independent
cost consultant. An independent cost consultant has reviewed the entire
submission and given the opinion that the price was fair and reasonable.
Mr. Wotherspoon:
— I know with time . . . It’s a fairly big subject here. We probably
could have used a fair amount more time on it even to get a better
understanding of what that complex infrastructure is specifically, like what
are we are talking about in a hospital that’s not there in a school, for
example, because certainly steel and cement and things are used everywhere.
One last question before I turn it over
to my colleague for a couple of questions on education. Who was the independent
cost . . . Who provided that service?
Ms. Nichols:
— Hi. The independent cost consultant was SSA Quantity Surveyors Ltd. It was
retained as a professional quantity surveyor to benchmark construction costs
and validate estimates on major capital projects while ensuring the Government
of Saskatchewan maintains negotiating leverage throughout the progressive
design phase.
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Thanks. Who are they and where are
they located? We can do that research because I want to get a couple of
education questions here.
The
Chair: — Go ahead.
Mr.
Love: — Yes. Minister, I have two questions.
So for the sake of time, looking to see if you can table the answer to my first
question. In your opening comments you mentioned $8.8 million in this
budget to support planning for nine new schools and two renos. Would you be
willing to table how much of that 8.8 is designated for each of those projects as
well as what the estimated start date is for work, and then the estimated
timeline for opening of those projects?
Hon. Mr. Hargrave:
— I’ll give you what I can here.
Ms. Nichols:
— The Ministry of Education would have to provide the breakdown of the budget
numbers under the 8.8. But I can answer that from the initial announcement,
typically a new school takes approximately four years: planning and land
acquisition, design, construction takes 24 months, and then there’s typically a
move-in period.
Mr.
Love: — Okay, I’ve got one final question.
Minister, where you talked about the increase in costs for concrete and steel
that’s impacting announcements for hospital builds, of course that impacts
education as well. I’m hearing from school boards that due to inflation the
cost of new builds, the market value puts that somewhere between 4,700 to
$5,000 per square metre, but that school divisions have been asked to engage in
designing buildings at $4,100 per square metre.
In your estimation, can you explain the
difference between the market value and what schools are asked to design at,
and as well as how school boards are expected to make up that difference?
[17:00]
Ms. Nichols:
— Our ministry recognizes that in some cases there have been affordability challenges
leading to difficult decisions on major education projects. Through that we’ve
maintained strong partnerships with the Ministry of Education and school
divisions, allowing us to work collaboratively in managing and finding
solutions to those pressures.
The
Chair: — Thank you. Having reached our
agreed-upon time for consideration of SaskBuilds, we will adjourn consideration
of these estimates. I’d ask the minister if you have any closing comments.
Hon.
Mr. Hargrave: — Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to
thank the members of the committee on both sides of the aisles here and my team
of people, of extremely valuable, talented people from SaskBuilds. Of course
the people up in the booth up there, our Hansard, are always the best and we
appreciate that. And you, Mr. Chair, thanks for doing your job.
The
Chair: — Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr.
Wotherspoon?
Mr.
Wotherspoon: — Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thought you
were tough but fair and always dapper, looking sharp. I want to say thanks to
the Table of course, and Hansard, but thanks to the minister for the time
tonight.
Importantly, thanks to all the officials
that have joined us here, all those that are involved in this important work
across the province. We probably could have allocated a little more time for
these considerations. Sorry if we rushed along a couple of the responses.
Thanks to everyone, and thanks as well for the undertaking to provide
information back on a few different fronts, but thanks for all the work
everyone’s involved in.
The
Chair: — All right. That concludes our
business for today. I would ask a member to move a motion of adjournment. Mr.
Bonk has moved. All agreed?
Some
Hon. Members: — Agreed.
The
Chair: — Carried. This committee stands
adjourned until Wednesday, April 24th at 3:30 p.m. Thanks, everyone.
[The committee adjourned at 17:04.]
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